Tag Archives: Kevin Shattenkirk

Armchair GM, Beer League Hero, Edmonton Oilers, NHL

Exit Stage Left: Thinning Out the Herd

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Seks all. night. long. baby!
Seks all. night. long. baby!

Take a look at this list of defensemen in the Edmonton Oilers system and let me know if you see a problem. And just as a preface for the rest of this post, it’s a tad jumpy. So bear with me and I think you’ll get the point at the end.

LEFT HANDED SHOOTERS RIGHT HANDED SHOOTERS
Andrej Sekera Justin Schultz (RFA)
Oscar Klefbom Mark Fayne
Darnell Nurse Eric Gryba (UFA)
Brandon Davidson (RFA) Adam Clendenning (RFA)
Andrew Ference (IR) Ethan Bear (Junior)
Griffin Reinhart John Marino (NCAA)
Nikita Nikitin (UFA)
David Musil (RFA)
Jordan Oesterle (RFA)
Brad Hunt
Joey LaLeggia
Dillon Simpson
Ben Betker
Martin Gernat (RFA)
William Lagesson (unsigned)
Caleb Jones (unsigned)
Ziyat Paigin (unsigned)

Feel free to let me know if I’ve missed someone in that list but it looks like Peter Chiarelli definitely has his hands full here. He needs to thin this pack out, upgrade it and try to create some balance.

Surely Jultz will be gone by the end of next week and if someone is desperate enough, they just might make a deal for Gryba but I can’t see it. I see him getting re-signed. From what I’m hearing, Gryba is part of the glue of the room. The players look up to him and he looks out for them. Just as Matt Hendricks does for the forwards. I’m in favour of keeping these kinds of players and he’s had a brilliant season to date. Unlucky to have been injured this late in the season but if there’s a team out there that wants that reliable muscle for the playoff run, he’s a pretty good candidate and the Oilers could always re-visit him this summer and see what he’s looking for.

I’m skeptical that Clendenning gets another deal and is allowed to walk and if someone is willing to take a flyer on Nikitin next week. It’s been a blast Nikki. Not really. Mark Fayne could be a rightie that gets moved if there’s a team out there that has cap room and wants the insurance on the back-end.

So that would put the right side at Fayne or Gryba, Fayne and Gryba or neither of them, leaving Mr.Chiarelli a hole or holes to fill. Maybe.

As for the left side, I think that is locked down for the foreseeable future with Sekera, Klefbom, Nurse, Davidson, and Reinhart sitting pretty there. But therein lies another problem. Too many lefties. PC has to move some bodies here. Of course Sekera can move to the right side but then where do you have room to upgrade? You don’t unless you’re willing to move someone.

I wonder if PC will cut bait on Griffin Reinhart. He was supposed to be a full-time NHLer this year and hasn’t been able to hold down a place. That being said, he’s had as many good games as Justin Schultz this year. But would it be so bad if it took him a season more in the minors before he made the switch to pro? With all the lefties competing for a spot, one would have to think that there’s definitely room to have him marinate in Bakersfield for another year. Maybe send him to the gentleman that helped Leon Draisaitl’s skating last summer.

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Do you think Chiarelli would move Klefbom in a deal for Hamonic? Or in a deal where the odds are a million to one, could Nurse be sent to Montreal for Subban? What about St.Louis? Would the Blues want a defender back in a deal for Shattenkirk?

Brandon Davidson has been a revelation for the Oilers this season and is one of the only players on the team that was gifted the time in the minors to develop properly. Funny how things work out when you don’t take shortcuts, isn’t it? I’d like to keep him as he looks to be the kind of guy that calms things down for his partner. He’s still a young guy though, so I wouldn’t exactly start pairing him with Nurse or any other rookies just yet. So hopefully PC gets this guy locked up right quick!

I think ideally you could see the defense going into the 2016-17 season tlooking something like this:

Klefbom – New Guy
Nurse – Sekera
Davidson – Fayne
Gryba

But what if it looked like this?

Nurse – Hamonic/Shattenkirk
Sekera – Vatanen/Demers
Davidson – Gryba
Reinhart

So you’ve moved out Klefbom and Fayne and added Hamonic/Shattenkirk/Vatanen/Demers. Is this a defensive grouping that gets you closer to the playoffs? Closer than the previous group above? I’d have to say yes. Now, I’m not saying the Oilers would deal Fayne for Vatanen. That’s mad. Work out the deals yourself. I’m just throwing names out there that we’ve discussed previously.

Would the latter group be too heavy on the cap? S-kirk is definitely going to be looking for north of $6M per, Vatanen I would think might be looking for Klefbom numbers and Hamonic is already on a pretty sexy deal ($3.8M for the next five years). Demers is a tough call. He’s getting $3.4M now, so let’s say he seeks upwards of $5M per.

Would you be happy with a loading up of higher priced dmen at the sacrifice of skill up front? It’d probably cost an Eberle, Nuge, and/or Hall to get it done. Go the Nashville route?

What do you think the Oilers should do with their glut of lefties on the back-end? Let me know in the comments below! And don’t forget to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter!

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Armchair GM, Edmonton Oilers, Micah Kowalchuk, NHL, Rumors

Just Another Manic Monday as an Oilers Fan

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Well, it is what it is, against horrible defensive teams we’re fine, but if we’re against a team who has defense, our lack of defense shows up.

Our forward corps isn’t bad, but it lacks a few elements.

First, I’d try a Hall-Draisatl-Kassian first line, Purcell’s a skilled defensive veteran, but they need a net-crasher with physical play up there.

Second, Pouliot-McDavid-Eberle have a whopping 4 games together to build chemistry, let’s just give them time.

Third, I’d consider giving Korpikoski-Letestu-Pakarinen the third line spot at this point, the two Finns are playing well together.

Fourth, with Lander-Hendricks-Khaira, that would be a physical fourth line with a ton of faceoff ability and defensive skill. Minimal scoring, but hey.

Fifth, Yakupov really has no place in this lineup right now sadly, he doesn’t fit the needs on the top two lines better than other options, and he’s not a good Bottom-6 piece. The same would apply to using RNH as a Bottom-6 center, and, again, he’s not the right fit in the Top-6, which needs more aggression. And Purcell has value right now, time to make a deal.

However, if you have to keep a piece, you keep RNH, although he’s not a fit in the Top-6 (other than injuries), he IS an upgrade at 3C, if far too expensive in the spot. Korpikoski-RNH-Pakarinen would be an interesting 3rd line, and then Lander-Letestu-Hendricks would be a very skilled defensive 4th line (if lacking in point potential).

So, that leaves Yak, RNH and Purcell as pieces to deal to fix the D, with RNH the one you try to keep.

On the back-end, Klefbom, Sekera, Davidson and Nurse look like keepers. Gryba’s done well, but he’s worth dealing when he’s got good value. Fayne is a bad fit, Schultz needs a change of scenery, it is what it is. And Clendening looked ok in limited time, worth giving him that 3rd pairing.

So, if you put the pieces together we have:

Klefbom-xxx Sekera-Davidson Nurse-Clendening

We end up with Fayne, Schultz, Gryba, Purcell, Yakupov, Reinhart, and as a last resort RNH as the pieces we can deal to fix that top-pairing RHD spot.

Now, odds are no one gets picked up this season, going into next season, depending on who signs where, odds are Hamonic, Shattenkirk and Vatanen will be the options if any for now. Hamonic requires a quality RHD in a deal, or a good D-man and a RW, but the only way the Oilers get that deal done is a Schultz+Yakupov+1st round pick for Hamonic and a salary like Clutterbuck coming back, and I’d venture Schultz has played his way out of this being a realistic deal, nor that Chiarelli wants to give up that pick.

Shattenkirk, odds are they either go for Drouin or wait until the off-season.

So, that leaves us with Anaheim and Vatanen. Now, Anaheim’s a team desperate for scoring and they’ve shown they’re willing to take chances. If the Oilers were to offer Yakupov, Purcell (50% retained), and Gryba (50% retained), it’s possible Anaheim listens, especially if the Oilers will take back a more expensive forward, such as Chris Stewart. It might be that the Oilers need to throw in a 2nd round pick to get it done, but that’s the most likely option. It helps that Yakupov is a cheap contract at $2.5mil and Anaheim’s not a cap team, so that adds to his value, and since Vatanen’s on their 3rd pairing right now, a guy like Gryba (who’ll be a cheap re-signing) who plays with the classic Anaheim physical style, it might just be enough to play “Let’s make a deal”.

I can understand doubting it, but here’s how Anaheim looks after the deal.

Perron-Getlaf-Perry (Was Perron-Getzlaf-Stewart)

Purcell-Kesler-Yakupov (Was Maroon-Rakell-Perry)

Silfverberg – Rakell – Stewart (Was Cogliano-Kesler-Silfverberg)

Maroon-Cogliano-Santorelli, with Garbutt as 13th forward. (Was Garbutt-Thompson-Santorelli)

On the back-end, they have:

Fowler-Bieksa

Lindholm-Manson

Despres-Gryba (Was Despres-Vatanen)

Overall, the scoring potential and depth at forward looks far stronger now, and with Purcell and Kesler, Yakupov won’t need to do anything defensive other than hammer the puck on the net to earn his pay cheque.

Now, for the Oilers, if you plug Vatanen into that D corps alongside Klefbom, suddenly it looks acceptable. Sure, it’s not ideal having Davidson play on his off-side, but the idea of Klefbom-Vatanen, Sekera-Davidson, Nurse-Clendening is a lot more respectable and has significantly higher puck moving abilities than before, which is what a fast-moving team like the Oilers needs to execute a breakout. Plus, the powerplay now has Klefbom-Vatanen as PP1, with Sekera-Clendening as PP2. That starts to look far more dangerous.

Now, this isn’t to say that it’s not worth pursuing a Shattenkirk or a Hamonic for the top pairing by any means, and it’s possible RNH is required at that point to obtain one, but both will likely be off-season deals, at which point Chiarelli has Fayne, Schultz, RNH and probably a guy like Davidson to use in order to obtain one.

As an additional point, Talbot’s numbers (regardless of the bad stretch) are consistent with a starting NHL goalie, if not a star goalie. Nilsson, on the other hand, has reverted to his previous NHL/AHL levels, but was a worthwhile experiment. However, there’s no real need to obtain some elite goalie. It may be that Brossoit is ready for next season, and if not, a veteran backup can be obtained in free agency. If you look at LA, NYI, PHI, they all obtained a standard backup in free agency who have been more than effective in their roles (Neuvirth, Greiss and Enroth), so this isn’t an area worth expending too much effort in and can be addressed easily enough. (Ramo, Khudobin, Stalock, Johnson, Enroth, Montoya, Raanta are all pending UFAs who would be solid backup options for next season if LB requires more seasoning).

Armchair GM, Beer League Hero, Edmonton Oilers, NHL, Rumors

Mad Oilers Trade Rumours!

Ebs should be packing his bags. It looks like he’s going to get moved.

So the rumours are flying from some major sources (Friedman) and some not so major sources (Eklund) and I’d like to take a stab at some of them.

The beloved Elliotte Friedman was on Oilers Now today with good ol’ Bob Stauffer and he was letting the rumor bombs go left and right as they set ablaze the oilogosphere.

If you’d like to listen to his segment you can do that below. I’ll have another segment further down where Stauffer hits at the Washington Capitals need for a defenceman going into the playoffs…

After a bit of back and forth regarding Twitter dos and don’ts (Stauffer did tell a story about a blogger that made a comment about Bob’s weight for which he confronted said blogger at a Golden Bears game. I have a feeling I might know which blogger he was talking about and I could be wrong but… Lay off the RC Cola) they broke into some pretty major Oilers chatter.

First up was Justin Schultz which was premised by Bob asking Friedman what the market was for Jultz and adding that the Oilers are in a position to retain salary.

https://twitter.com/NicholsOnHockey/status/693158003906781184

https://twitter.com/NicholsOnHockey/status/693158294840410112

Stauffer goes on to pontificate about the futures of Travis Hamonic, Sami Vatanen, and Kevin Shattenkirk to which Friedman replied:

https://twitter.com/NicholsOnHockey/status/693158799176110080

https://twitter.com/NicholsOnHockey/status/693160012537933824

https://twitter.com/NicholsOnHockey/status/693161722899623936

Friedman also spoke about Kyle Okposo and that in turn fuelled the Twitter rumor that was cruising today, what about an Okposo/Hamonic for Eberle/Jultz deal? I looked at this waaaaay back in November here. The only thing that is holding this back is possibly Okposo’s contract demands. He’s looking for some major money and anybody who is anybody knows what happens when you give power forwards big bucks on long-term deals…

EF did say that the Ducks will be looking for a young player in return. So could that be Eberle, could it maybe be Yakupov? I feel it’d be harder to see Eberle in a different jersey six times a year rather than Yak…

As for which blue liner I prefer. That is really a tough call as they are both quite good. The fact that the Oilers are dead last (I think) in scoring from the blue leads me to lean closer to Vatanen than Lindholm to be honest.

EF does wonder aloud about the Ducks willingness to add another big contract to which Stauffer says maybe Anaheim adds a contract going back to offset the $6m (Eberle I’m assuming) going to the Ducks.

Sounds like Shattenkirk is either sticking with the Blues as they go through this little injury crisis or he’s heading to Tampa in a deal for Drouin. I don’t think the Oilers were ever or will ever be in contention for the defenceman.

Later on in his segment with Friedman (11:23 mark above), Stauffer mentions Sabres GM Tim Murray’s interest in Justin Schultz and an interest that has been there since his days with the Anaheim Ducks. Now if you didn’t know, Justin Schultz was a 2nd round pick of the Ducks back in 2008. So perhaps some dots can be connected there.

Two weeks ago, I did in fact let it be known that through my sources that Buffalo was interested in a right-handed puck-moving defenceman on the Oilers here.

Later on in Oilers Now Bob Stauffer, as he often does when he’s leaking something OR misleading his audience, slyly went on about the Washington Capitals potentially looking for a replacement for Brooks Orpik. Now why would anything that the Caps do have anything to do with the Oilers? Well I imagine it’s possible the Oilers could have a dman or two that the Capitals fancy. Say…. Mark Fayne or Eric Gryba…

Staying on the Capitals, my source tells me that they’re interested in Teddy Purcell but they’re not the only team that’s interested. The other team being the Chicago Blackhawks and that lines up with Eklund’s newest post.

Now I understand fully that Eklund isn’t the most reliable of reference points and that nobody else is talking about the Hawks and Oiler getting together on Purcell but as I said before, this is the word I get. You can choose to believe it or you can choose to ignore it. Up to you. I just put it out there for all of you wonderful people to consume.

So if the Oilers move out Jordan Eberle and Teddy Purcell, that’s their two top RWs. Would Yakupov or Pakarinen get moved right up or is it possible the Oilers pick up a bad contract to fill in for the rest of the year. What about promoting Anton Slepyshev or bringing up Josh Winquist?

Lots of rumour talk today. Let me know what you think in the comments below!

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Armchair GM, Edmonton Oilers, Lindsay Ryall, NHL

Could Shattenkirk’s Acquisition Stop the Oiler’s Defense Blues?

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It’s always the paradox when critiquing any aspect of the Edmonton Oilers.  If you criticize the goaltending, the question arises:  Is it really the goaltending or the sloppy D that gives up grade A chances?  Is the bottom six so un-productive?  Or would their numbers improve if they had a Defense that could get them the puck?  Looking for a solution in this tail chasing exercise always comes to the same conclusion:  The Oilers need to make a meaningful trade to get an efficient puckmover for their blueline.

The question is timing, and if there is enough of a sense of urgency to trade a valuable asset now, or continue to develop their current crop of young D.  However, with Justin Schultz’s potential a bit hazy, sooner, rather than later, should be the order of the day.  But who should be the target?  Looking for an established top four defender is not easy.  For proof of recent failed attempts, simply look to Oiler’s farm team or pressbox where a couple of failed free agents reside.

The problem is, teams don’t trade their top pairing defencemen, so you need to gamble on a player that’s on the rise, or target a team that has a surplus of D, that could lead them to cap trouble if they don’t make a decision.  Following that logic, the Oiler’s should consider the St. Louis Blues, and offensive D-man dynamo, Kevin Shattenkirk.

To identify why Shattenkirk might be available, you only have to look at the St. Louis Blues’ success in drafting, developing, and acquiring d-men.  Joel Edmundson is a 2nd round draft-pick from 2011 who will be an RFA this summer and is playing on the top pair with Alex Pieterangelo.  Pieterangelo was acquired via the draft in 2008, 4th overall, and anchors the top pairing.

In the 3 spot there is veteran Jay Bouwmeester partnered with towering 3rd round revelation, Colton Parayko, who has been having a solid season to this point and (with Shattenkirk injured) has slid into the four spot on the depth chart.  This puts the St. Louis Blues in the driver’s seat as far as their blueline personnel goes.  Shattenkirk will be a UFA in 2016 – 17, but they have options.  With the young D-corps they have, they don’t need to mortgage the farm to keep him, in reality, they can let him walk.  But why let a legitimate top four defender walk when they can gain an asset?

For Shattenkirk, this is a bad situation.  If he continues to lose ice time to Parayko his stats will suffer, and that won’t help his case leading up to free agency two seasons away.  Alternatively, If he played out his contract in Edmonton, he would be playing on the top pairing all the time, feeding the likes of Mcdavid and Hall, making a 60 point plus season a very real possibility.

Could Edmonton Make a Deal Work?

For Edmonton, Shattenkirk would be a very nice fit, and solve more than a couple of problems on the Oil blueline.  The book on Shattenkirk is decent defense, and exceptional offense.  He reads plays well, has a powerful point shot, sends out accurate passes to his forwards, and quarterbacks the powerplay as good as anyone in the league.  He has registered 40 points or more in three of his last four seasons including 44 points in 56 games last year.  If he had played the full season he would have set the standard for offense from the D that season. Currently, the Oilers don’t have a defenseman that can do all those things consistently and wish they did.

How Might a Potential Deal Look?

There is no rush for St. Louis to trade Shattenkirk, but as early as December  they will likely be identifying needs for the playoffs.  If Parayko continues to fit in well on the Blueline, and there  are no major injuries, they may be looking for a deal.  Do the Oilers have assets to help them?  Currently the Blues are being hard hit by the injury bug.  Paul Stastny, Jaden Schwartz, Steve Ott, and Patrik Berglund are all in the infirmary.  They could use some depth and support there.  The Blues are always looking for more value and draft better than most, so a high pick might be worthwhile too.  Since they are losing a D-man, a defensive prospect in return might be worthwhile.  So my initial offer would be:

2016 first round pick plus Anton Lander for Kevin Shattenkirk

This is where things get risky, more for the Oilers than for the Blues.  At their current pace, the Oilers will likely again be in a high percentage lottery position and with American born phenom Auston Matthews the potential prize, that would be a lot to lose.

However, from another perspective, the Oilers aren’t likely to finish that low in the draft selection.  Even in their current funk I would see them drafting somewhere in the 6 to 8 spot.  Drafting there should be enticing enough for the Blues.  And would the Oilers be willing to give up a first rounder for a proven commodity?  At this stage I would think so.

Including Anton Lander may be an overpay but would be of interest to the Blues as they could use reinforcements on a long playoff run, especially one so proficient in winning face-offs.  And in return, the Oilers receive an offensively gifted defenseman who wouldn’t look so over his head in a top pairing spot like Sekera or Schultz.

Speaking of Schultz, Shattenkirk’s arrival could allow the Oilers make a definite decision on that player.  Playing the two on separate pairings, it would make sense that by the trade deadline they could either trade Schultz for some kind of asset, or walk away from him at the end of the season.  Either way, a trade for Shattenkirk could go a long way to solidifying a still shaky D.

But could the Oilers pull this off without giving up any part of their core?  I would think so, simply because the Oilers forward corps doesn’t match well with what the Blues are looking for, and, while Shattenkirk is an upgrade, he’s not a true number one, and therefore wouldn’t warrant the return of our top four fourwards.  Whether Chiarelli can pull a deal like this off is another question, but its a question worth asking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqVN24mtpjU

Armchair GM, Edmonton Oilers, Prospects, Rob Cooke, Rumors, Trades

Move McDavid to the Wing?

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News in the NHL has slowed to a trickle over the last few weeks. Especially if you are a fan of the blue and orange. The only real notable news is the training camp invites and the venerable Lowetide has those covered for us here. There are a couple notable players on that list of camp invites. Especially defenseman Loik Leveille, forward Rihards Bukarts, and goaltender Jordan Papirny. All three are players that I would have though would have been drafted but the NHL is a different animal and the best players are not always the ones that are selected. The Oilers currently have eight players coming to camp on an invite but with nearly a month to go until camp officially opens we could still see more added to the list. I know a lot of people are still hoping to see diminutive forward Vladimir Tkachev receive an invite but I think that ship has sailed and should the pint-sized player receive said invitation I highly doubt it is with Edmonton.

So what else is there to discuss in Oiler-land? The vast majority of blog sites as well as most main stream media are busy with point projections, line combinations, and standings predictions at this point in the summer so that just goes to show just how little is actually happening at the Oilers offices over on Kingsway.

I happened to be surfing the web this morning and came across a few rumors that, while I don’t think are actually going to happen, still got me to thinking about possible changes that would greatly affect how Connor McDavid is used in his first season of professional hockey. The first rumor is the Kevin Shattenkirk for Jordan Eberle that is making the rounds on the net right now. I’m not going to say much about this proposal as it has been covered today already in the Sunday Night Pint by myself and several others. You really should read the post, it is a terrific series we run every Sunday. If you haven’t read it yet then shame on you but here is a quick link to the post. The other rumor that I read, and I have no intention of offering free publicity to the original poster, is that the New York Rangers supposedly have some interest in doing a swap of Keith Yandle for the so-called enigmatic Nail Yakupov. I would have to think about that deal long and hard before I decided either way but that is irrelevant at this point.

For my intents and purposes I want to assume that one of the two is moved. Return is of little consequence to this post because obviously if either is moved it will be for help on the back end and not a right wing that can play top six minutes. Should Peter Chiarelli decide to move either Ebs or Yak prior to the season than who can fill the hole left behind? That is the $64,000 question. Can Edmonton trade their best player on the starboard side for defensive help without bringing in help from outside the organization to fill it?

The funny thing is that prior to the draft lottery on April 18th, a night that will live forever to Oilers fans, I would have said there was absolutely no chance that Eberle would be moved as there just wasn’t anyone close to being able to fill his skates so to speak. Winning that lottery changed everything for the Oilers. We went from having a middle of the pack prospect group to have the best group in the entire league. Between McDavid, Draisaitl, Nurse and Reinhart we have four young players that should make huge impacts on this team sooner or later. My money is on sooner by the way.

Should Edmonton move Jordan we are left with a gaping hole on the right side that needs to be effectively filled for there to be any chance of a playoff appearance this season. Do any of the three other right wings that are expected to be on the opening night roster look like they are able to bring what Jordan does on a nightly basis? They sure don’t to me.

Likely the best option available may be for one of our two prospect centers to be moved to the right side and hope they are able to keep up. To me the two best options for a replacement from within would definitely be Leon Draisaitl and Connor McDavid. Both are extremely highly touted prospects and would both be able to handle the pressure of playing in the top six on the right side.

Obviously the issue here is which player would be better suited to the move? Everyone knows the scouting reports for these two players and what each kid will potentially bring to the line up. With Draisaitl we have a big player that has hands of silk and quite possibly the best passing ability on the entire team. He has 39 games of pro experience so he obviously already knows what it will take for him to be on the team for the duration. There isn’t really anything that needs to be said about McDavid that hasn’t already been said before by someone. He is the real deal and from where I stand I don’t really see any weaknesses in his game.

In my opinion the easiest way to answer the question of which guy to move is essentially answered by who would be more important to this team as a center this fall. If I was the general manager I think I would be inclined to put Leon at center and move Connor to the wing. If for no other reason than because Leon is huge! His size lends itself well to having to line up against the big bad centers of the western conference. To me Draisaitl would be much better equipped to do battle with the Getzlaf’s and Kopitar’s in the west than the smaller McDavid. Not that I think that Connor couldn’t handle it because he has excelled at every challenge that has been placed in front of him for the better part of the last decade so to count him out would be extremely foolish.

More than likely Connor would handle himself just fine as a rookie center in the NHL even if he doesn’t dominate from the outset but why add that extra pressure to a kid that is already under more pressure than any player since Crosby. I would actually venture to say that McDavid is under more pressure for the simple fact that the Oilers fans are such a ravenous bunch that most expect an immediate turn around now that he is in the fold even though one player can’t do it all on his own. Those are some insanely high expectations to place on an 18 year old kid. Even one that is as poised and mature as Connor appears to be.

What would you do? Would you move McDavid to the wing? Leon? Or do you have another option in mind? Personally I think both Ebs and Yak will be here come October and this argument will have been pointless. Fun but pointless nonetheless.

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